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SamuraiWiki talk:Bujutsu Task Force

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  • I have finished adding sources on this category from my book.If anybody has sources for the rest, please add. Thanks.--Shikisoku 06:10, 20 November 2006 (PST)
I'm pretty useless as far as sources and info go, but I'll help out in organizing things. --Kitsuno 13:04, 23 November 2006 (PST)

Contents

Talk page questions/discussions

I've noticed a few questions/discussions on some of the Bujutsu article talk pages. They should probably be discussed here on this page so we can keep track of everything. These are the links with discussion:

"General Articles"

Baian brought up a good point on my Talk Page - how should we go about doing the more "general" articles, like Kenjutsu, Naginata Jutsu, etc. - It isn't a specific Ryu, and would be general like writing about "Samurai", or "Castles", so what is a good way to present it? What sort of information should these articles contain? I was thinking the definition, and then "history" as it pertains to the history of Kenjutsu, etc. People who read the article will want to know what it is, why it came about (if known or applicable), examples to illustrate, Samurai who were known for it, etc.

I am thinking we'd need sub categories like "history", "examples" etc. --Kitsuno 20:32, 24 November 2006 (PST)


Good question. For something like that it would be slightly difficult. The origins of general styles are highly debatable and the basics of it do not extend much beyond: "kenjutsu is the art of using the Japanese sword once it has been drawn from the sheath." Msr.iaidoka 00:03, 25 November 2005 (EST)

You all are well acquainted with how much I hate Wikipedia, but I did a check, and they have a relatively long article on Kenjutsu - I don't like how it is written, but the concept is similar to what I had in mind - what do you all think of that wikipedia article? I think there is a lot of irrelevant info there myself, but I also think we can beat that. --Kitsuno 21:07, 24 November 2006 (PST)
That article could not possibly be any more full of garbage if it tried. I does not even have the most basic difference between kenjutsu and iaijutsu mentioned. I am very certain that we can do better, but it will not be anywhere near as wordy. That article was just garbage with excessive filler. Msr.iaidoka 00:31, 25 November 2006 (EST)
OK, tell me what you think of this. I do not think I could make the article any bigger without compromising quality. Kenjutsu
Looks good to me, all I can think of is that we could add a list of Kenjutsu ryu or something similar. --Kitsuno 22:28, 24 November 2006 (PST)
Doable. Just a matter of cross-referencing. Msr.iaidoka 01:39, 25 November 2006 (EST)
My ignorance could be an asset for the article - I'll read it and ask my N00B questions, and that might give you some ideas on what might be added. --Kitsuno 22:42, 24 November 2006 (PST)
That should work out fine. I have unknowledgeable friends read over my papers as a first proofread to take care of any basic comprehension problems. Msr.iaidoka 02:12, 25 November 2006 (EST)
I added a brief 'history' section, based off of Karl Friday's "Legacies of the Sword". I tried to keep it broad, not related to the actual founding of any given school, but talking about kenjutsu and schools in general. I am curious, however, whether or not we need the -do and -jutsu debate in that article (not sure where else we should put it--maybe a generic 'bujutsu' article?), but that can get fairly contentious. Also, I disagree with the way kenjutsu and battojutsu are specifically called out. Kenjutsu is technically all sword techniques. Battojutsu and iaijutsu are, strictly speaking, subsets of kenjutsu. I usually liken it to the way a square is a rectangle but a rectangle is not necessarily a square. My preference would be to describe battojutsu and iaijutsu as a separate articles. Thoughts? JLBadgley 06:58, 25 May 2007 (PDT)

Yagyu Shingan Ryu

Concerning the founder (Tozawa Obito), I'll check for his name in kanji in my notes tomorrow. As for Takenaga Hayato, he started a branch of Yagyu Shingan, but not the original. There seems to be many Yagyu shingan Ryu group, following different 'history'. Tozawa Obitô is the founder of Shingan Ryû and the teacher of Takahisa Masabito Kanetsugu, who renamed the school as Yagyû Shingan ryû. Should we consider him the founder for the article instead? Baian 18:36, 26 November 2006 (EST)


I got it! It's 所沢帯刀 http://isoroku-s.tripod.com/yagyu_root.htm Obito is wrong reading, it's "Tatewaki". Yes it's not modern reading but the name 帯刀(Tatewaki) was pretty common name in those days. And it seems 羽州帯刀 (Ushu tatewaki) is more common than 所沢帯刀(Tozawa tatewaki).

Search result of Ushu Tatewaki

Search result of Tozawa Tatewaki --Shikisoku 16:26, 26 November 2006 (PST)


Cool. If it's right(which would seems to be), it's my fault for not reading properly. Need to work on my Japanese seems like. I'll just double check with my friend tomorrow to make sure. He should know and have a good explanation. He knows more than any people I know about the koryu. Baian 20:13, 26/11/06 (EST)


Ok, I got an explanation now. It would seems that both names are mentionned in different texts (same kanji of course, but meant to sounds different depending of context). Obitô was supposely common name in Sendai. So we could keep Tozawa Obitô and add Ushu Tatewaki in parenthesis. Ok like that? Baian 21:10, 27/11/06


Will you cite sources that Obito was common in Sendai? This Yagyu Shingan Ryu site describes "Tatewaki" 「流儀を開いたのは荘内の人・羽州帯刀(うしゅうたてわき)。」http://www.ichigeki.co.jp/o_style/20031105.html  This one is Sendai's local history site.http://katahira.org/tsusin/5-siba3.htm It describes Harada Kai(Sendai han Karo)'s son was "Tatewaki" 「8)仙台大神宮…茂庭周防(もにわ・すおう)邸跡(志田郡松山一万三千石・妹は原田甲斐の長男・帯刀(たてわき)の妻、騒動後帯刀は切腹、二人の男の子は刺殺、妻と長女は松山に預けられる)【兵部派】」--Shikisoku 20:23, 27 November 2006 (PST)


It seems Yagyu Shingan Ryu is very complicated.

http://www.pref.miyagi.jp/bunkazai/siteibunkazai/miyagi-no-bunkazai/09Mukei-ken/03jyujyutu.htm I am going to add these informations.--Shikisoku 21:01, 27 November 2006 (PST)


I also need Kanji of Takahisa Masabito Kanetsugu. If your source is Bugei Ryûha Daijiten 1969 Will you scan the page and post on S-A Forum? Thanks--Shikisoku 21:43, 27 November 2006 (PST)


My source is a private translation (in french), made by a friend of mine, of the Bugei Ryuhâ Daijiten. Although I trust the translation is accurate, I do not have the whole book, only some parts I needed at the time. There's no problem if you decide not to trust me about the source on that account. It's understandable.

And yes, that ryûha is very complicated. Like all the Yagyu schools, many branches appeared all over Japan. Some of them are really doubtful also. Baian 10:11, 29/11/06 (EST)


Will you have your friend to send the photo copy of the page? I know the book is good one but it seems there are mistranslations. 帯刀=Tatewaki is kind of common knowledge among historians in Japan. And I am unable to find Takahisa Masabito Kanetsugu on any Yagyu Shingan Ryu related sources.--Shikisoku 07:34, 29 November 2006 (PST)


He's going to be hard to reach for 2 months since he'll be travelling a lot, but I'll see what I can do. If I can't get it, what do you suggest? Do you have access to the book? And I guess you're right about mistranslations. So maybe we can assume that Takahisa Masabito Kanetsugu is also pronounced another way. I did find Takenage Hayato Kanetsugu listed as a founder on the web. Could it be read the same way? Baian 10:01, 30/11/06 (EST)


The book is out of print.(But some chapters of my book refer Bugei Ryûha Daijiten 1969<-this book is like bible for bujutsu history research) As for Takahisa Masabito Kanetsugu , I thought that could be mistranslation of Takenaga Hayato. Japanese never read 竹永隼人(Takenaga Hayato) Takehisa Masabito though.--Shikisoku 00:44, 1 December 2006 (PST)

I have deleted Obito since there is no source.--Shikisoku 06:58, 7 January 2007 (PST)

Sure. Clean it up as you see fit. Baian 14:02, 01/17/07 (EST)

Title of Lineage Chart

I do not know about anybody else, and no offense to the one who put it up there, but I can not stand having masters on the lineage diagrams. It conjurs ideas of people like Ron Duncan. I kind of hate to use the correct Soke, so does any one have suggestions, maybe Heads, or leaders, or maybe even Successors?

Oh and while I am at it, I am planning on adding linrages to some pages, but I do not have my cad software on this computer, what did you, who ever added the lineage charts, use to create them with. If you can wait till the 20 or so of next month I can add them then. Rikoseishin

I'm not sure what was used for this type of image but it can be done with photoshop, the only minor annoyance is that it has to be done manually - draw the lines, get them in the right place, center the text, etc. If you have something that builds it automatically when you type in the names, that is probably easier --Kitsuno 00:19, 28 November 2006 (PST)
I guess I can wait to deal with that later. Like I said I have AutoCAD, in my opinion the best computer assisted drafting software. Anyway I can create anything form the ground up, then I can make a template out of it, and bingo its all down hill. Anyideas about the linegae? Rikoseishin
No idea - does that mean "people who ran the school" or "people who walk around claiming to be "master"? If there was a list of people who ran the school before they got franchised like Mickey Deez than I'd say stick with that. But since I don't know how it works, better wait for someone else's input. --Kitsuno 00:32, 28 November 2006 (PST)
I did put the chart. My source is the book I mentioned and J-wikipedia and the Ryu-ha's web sites. Who's Ron Duncan? I used Illustrator for the pictures. If you post sources on F-A forum I can make pictures.--Shikisoku 01:54, 28 November 2006 (PST)

I will wait till I go home, it will only be two weeks. Shikosku, how do you feel as to the naming of the linage heads? The reason I am asking you is because you were the one to put the current one up. Again I feel that something else should be instituted so as to not convey, even if by mistake, a sense of lacking.

Do the linage heads mean the names of masters or Ryuha genealogy chart? It's totally OK to correct them if there are mistakes. --Shikisoku 22:46, 29 November 2006 (PST)

Well I have apparently been handed the reins for this by Shikisoku, so I think that Successors is the best way to go with this, for the moment anyway. Any objections? Rikoseishin
I've been trying to update things--I hope people will correct them if they don't like the format. I've been using 'Lineage' as a section. I just tried something with Asayama Ichiden Ryu and I'm interested in how that works for people. A lot of these names are just people who received 'kaiden', or were at least listed as a previous instructor's teacher. I've tried to put it down in a text format as best I can--if anyone has time to do a nice chart like I have seen on some of the others, that would be great, but I'm just trying to get the information in there right now.
When I'm doing that, though, what do people think about names? Many of the lineage charts I have show kanji with no furigana. This is fine for a majority of names, but when it comes to some where there could be 3 or 4 pronunciations I try to take the one that seems most common. Still, since I don't have an authoritative source on the name, I figure it would be best to add the kanji as well, so that others can make their own determination. I've been doing it as footnotes, but it was suggested to me recently that I put it right there in the main body of the article. Thoughts? --JLBadgley 17:48, 27 May 2007 (PDT)

Shinsen Bujutsu Ryusoroku

This book looks like a good source - what exactly does it cover? I think the entry (Shinsen Bujutsu Ryusoroku) should probably be expanded, maybe a list of the Ryu it covers, etc. --Kitsuno 22:35, 4 December 2006 (PST)


The book can be found only in some university liberalies or famous secondhand bookstores. The price is around $200.--Shikisoku 17:42, 12 December 2006 (PST)

Categorizing bujutsu founders

Should we also put the founders of bujutsu styles into the Bujutsu Category? I sort of think we should. --Kitsuno 17:28, 10 December 2006 (PST)

Is it possible to put them in both the Bujutsu Category and the Samurai Category? Someone like Yagyu Munenori (although not a founder, but an important figure nonetheless), had both a role in the development of Yaguy Shinkage Ryu and a role during Sekigahara (as a messenger). Although founders and swordsmen, they are still considered Samurai. The only exception could be Takeda Sokaku. Would it take more space on the wiki to do it that way? --Baian 13:53, 12/12/06 (EST)

If they are Samurai, of course. --Kitsuno 13:15, 13 December 2006 (PST)

Images

What sort of images should be added, if any, to the ryuha articles? I'm not inclined to allow "school" banners/badges to be displayed, since there are too many, I'd either want them all or none. What does everyone think? --Kitsuno 13:14, 13 December 2006 (PST)

The problem with ryu-ha nowadays, is that there's too many braches. If we put an image of someone in kamae from that school or such, we run the risk of getting complains (ex:'that guy isn't practicing the real thing! blablablah'). If we can get a photo of a painting or of the statue of a founder, then cool I say. The best thing we could honestly do (if available), is put pictures/images of densho/makimono related to the ryu-ha. --Baian 18:36, 12/13/06 (EST)

Agreed. Statues would be best - I know I don't have any pics like that. --Kitsuno 16:24, 13 December 2006 (PST)

Aisu Hisatada

My Japanese biography of Aisu Hisatada has his other name as 移香 (Ikô), but the Aisu-Kage Ryu article has it is as 移香斎 (Ikôsai) - what is the difference? Is there a difference? --Kitsuno 21:27, 14 December 2006 (PST)


"sai" is 斎号. --Shikisoku 06:53, 7 January 2007 (PST)

Jujutsu article

Needs to be cleaned up. Any volunteers please? --Kitsuno 22:17, 22 December 2006 (PST)

I've no problem with doing it. I'll also correct a few stuff. But can it wait after the holidays? --Baian 19:23, 12/23/06 (EST)

Sure, whenever you get the chance. --Kitsuno 17:58, 23 December 2006 (PST)
The Naginatajutsu article also needs to be edited, and needs sources as well.

Which user is creating those? Wasn't he advise that we always need sources? --Baian 19:52, 01/06/07 (EST)

it was apparently a one-time thing - one made the jujutsu article, one made the other one. Try to fix them up, add to them, and add sources, or just blank them and start over if they are unsalvageable. Whatever has to be done. --Kitsuno 17:02, 6 January 2007 (PST)

I started editing it. It's still in progress, so I'll add more info, concrete explanation and some kanji in the following days.

Great, thanks! --Kitsuno 19:47, 17 January 2007 (PST)

Sorry for the long wait concerning the kanji. It's done now. Tell me if you think we need more info on it. --Baian 14:54, 25 February (EST)

What Ryu is this?

直新陰流 - is this different from regular Shin-Kage Ryu? --Kitsuno 22:17, 22 December 2006 (PST)

They are different.--Shikisoku 06:54, 7 January 2007 (PST)

Kenjutsu Ranks

Do most or all kenjutsu styles have the same ranking system - For Tennen Rishin Ryu it is listed as: Kirikami, Mokuroku, Chugokui, Mokuroku, Shinan Menkyo --Kitsuno 09:34, 31 December 2006 (PST)


Basically each Ryuha has different system.--Shikisoku 06:55, 7 January 2007 (PST)


Difference between "Do" and "Jutsu"

I removed the following text from the article because I do not believe it belongs in this particular article. The debate is rather long, and I think that it may deserve its own section. Regardless, I'm not sure if it helps in this particular instance:

"Generally a "-do" suffixed art, having only come about within the last century and a half, lends itself toward more of a philosophical/meditative curriculum. Conversely "-jutsu" suffixed arts tend to focus more on the technique and its combative application."

I don't believe this to be a proper stating of the case. This was generally the English-speaking world's understanding through Draegar in the 60s and 70s, but I do not believe it accurately reflects usage.

'Jutsu' means technique. It is often used to describe particular techniques of using a weapon or certain unarmed techniques.

'Do' indicates 'the way'. It is most commonly used in a spiritual/philosophical sense. Lao Tzu and Confucius both talked about the 'Tao' (道). Practice areas were often at Zen temples, or 道場 (place of the Way). However, as early as the Heian period experts were known as the "X no michi no hito" (Friday 1997). Although there were spiritual connotations to the use of '-do' it did not mean to imply that the art in question was any less effective (which is often implied in the way the argument is presented).

This, I think, is the crux of the matter, and I'll bring a few examples:

Judo--When Kano Jigoro named what he was doing 'Judo' I don't believe it had anything to do with it being 'less effective' or 'more sporting'. If you look at early Judo, he was just as concerned with effectiveness as anything else. After his death, you see the sporting element grow, especially in response to the anti-militarism of the post WWII era.

Naginata--When Atarashii Naginata was formed in the 20th century, it was advised not to use -do because of the spiritual elements that might seem to link it too heavily to a nationalist bent. In the Meiji era the literature for naginata in schools call it naginatajutsu no taiso, but many of the techniques are simply exercises.

Jodo--The Nihon Jodokai, headed by Kaminoda Tsunemori, call what they do 'Jodo'. This is Shindo Muso Ryu Jodo (or Jojutsu) and it is most definitely koryu, still focused on the techniques and their combative application. --JLBadgley 20:22, 27 May 2007 (PDT)

Bujutsu "errors"?

Check this thread on the forum for details:

http://forums.samurai-archives.com/viewtopic.php?t=1292 --Kitsuno 14:31, 5 February 2007 (PST)

Enlightenment

I changed the wording in Shinto Munen Ryu to "it is said..." because "enlightenment" is subjective and can't be held as fact. --Kitsuno 21:52, 10 February 2007 (PST)


Bojutsu

I was wondering if it wasn't better to put Bojutsu, Jojutsu and Hanbojutsu all on the same page. Although the techniques differ because of their difference in lengths, their origin is tightly linked together, if not the same. --Baian 15:12, 25 February, (EST)

I would think we would want Jojutsu separate. Don't have enough familiarity with Hanbojutsu to understand its difference with Bojutsu. I think that there is probably enough information to break it out. If not, I'd at least have a separate section on it.
--JLBadgley 21:48, 25 May 2007 (PDT)

Naginatajutsu

Hello all. I'm somewhat new to the wiki format (I know it has been around for a while, but I've never had the interest and time until I found S-A), so please let me know if I make any mistakes in editing pages. Anyway, I've updated naginatajutsu--I hope I did it right. I'm going to see what other sources I can find--unfortunately, my copy of Heike Monogatari is out on loan, though Bennett quotes it in several places. I'll see what else I can dig up, but that said, how should we attribute? I'm tempted to just use (Bennett 2005), but if people prefer I can do it all through footnotes or something similar. JLBadgley 20:55, 24 May 2007 (PDT)

I think just putting it in the sources is fine - if you could find a quote as an example from the Heike Monogatari, it might be an interesting addition. Instead of in-line citations, we've been doing footnotes. I'll format that when I get a chance, it's pretty simple. The article looks good. Most of the bujutsu articles are pretty short, so it's good to get a more detailed one in there. Feel free to add to whichever articles you see fit. Thanks for the help! --Kitsuno 00:08, 25 May 2007 (PDT)
Okay. I put the references into footnotes. It actually is much easier. I'll try to add some meat to a few more. JLBadgley 06:51, 25 May 2007 (PDT)
No need to go too far with the footnotes - what we've generally been doing in the past with footnotes is using them to point out contrary info (If 2 sources say two different things, we put the most "common" or "accepted" facts into the article, and footnote that info with an explanation of contrary info), or to clarify info in the article - we haven't been citing information with sources via footnotes (in other words, unlike a college paper where you cite every sentence or paragraph with the source, we've mainly been leaving it to be understood that any information in the article can be verified with the books listed in the "references" section) - it keeps the number of footnotes down. --Kitsuno 18:41, 27 May 2007 (PDT)

Kusari-gama-jutsu

I added an article on 'kusarigamajutsu'. I left it together as that seemed more consistent with the 'kenjutsu' and 'naginatajutsu' pages, but I put a redirect from kusari-gama-jutsu to make sure both were covered. If someone would rather put the main article under 'kusari-gama-jutsu', go right ahead--there are links out there to 'kusarigamajutsu', though, so we should probably go change those, too, to keep it consistent.

--JLBadgley 21:45, 25 May 2007 (PDT)

I think you're right, it is more consistent to put it together. The redirects are mainly for guesses for what you think people would type in a the search box anyway other than the actual title of the article.

Lineage or Successors?

Which word should I use?--Shikisoku 03:24, 19 March 2008 (PDT)

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